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	<title>Comments for Physics&amp;Parsimony</title>
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	<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>About physics and teaching</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:42:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Confusion Regarding Newton&#8217;s Third Law of Motion by Rose Davila-Gay</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rose Davila-Gay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=153#comment-127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am studying to be a new teacher and struggling with coming up with a &quot;logic flow&quot; for Newton&#039;s Laws.  Your post was very helpful, but I see you still have not posted the next article you promised Krishna.  I would be very interested in  hearing your ideas on how to scaffold students to a deep understanding of Newton&#039;s Third Law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am studying to be a new teacher and struggling with coming up with a &#8220;logic flow&#8221; for Newton&#8217;s Laws.  Your post was very helpful, but I see you still have not posted the next article you promised Krishna.  I would be very interested in  hearing your ideas on how to scaffold students to a deep understanding of Newton&#8217;s Third Law.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Confusion Regarding Newton&#8217;s Third Law of Motion by Andrew Mason</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew Mason]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 06:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=153#comment-126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I enjoyed your article very much. My view is that the third law is about changes in motion, not forces. There are always action/reaction pairs (I don&#039;t like the terms either) or change in momentum pairs for the reasons you have mentioned and a few others.  This is not necessarily always true for forces as you point out.

This becomes apparent when dealing with an atom emitting a photon and that photon being (later) absorbed by another identical atom. The exchange of a photon causes the emitting atom to experience a force and change in momentum and the absorbing atom to experience an equal and opposite force and change in momentum but at a slightly later time. So force reciprocity is not present at all times, but conservation of momentum always is (since the photon carries momentum).

I am currently engaged in a very interesting discussion with some very good physics minds on Physicsforums.com about the third law in the context of centripetal force and the proper characterisation of the &quot;reaction&quot; to a centripetal force.   Since in a rotating system, there is only centripetal acceleration, my view is that the third law pair to a centripetal change in motion/momentum of one body in the system is an equal but opposite centripetal motion/momentum of the rest of the system. The other view is that the &quot;reaction&quot; pair to the centripetal force on a body in the system is a &quot;centrifugal reaction force&quot; of that body on the system.  The suggestion being that this is a real force not to be confused with the &quot;fictitious centrifugal force&quot; but does not result in any &quot;change in motion&quot; at all. I am opposed to using the notion of a real centrifugal force as there is no real centrifugal acceleration. There is even a Wikipedia page on this &quot;reactive centrifugal force&quot; at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_centrifugal_force  , which I think is completely misconceived and mostly wrong.  But I seem to be a voice in the wilderness on physicsforums on this issue.

I would encourage you to keep up this interesting blog.
Thanks again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed your article very much. My view is that the third law is about changes in motion, not forces. There are always action/reaction pairs (I don&#8217;t like the terms either) or change in momentum pairs for the reasons you have mentioned and a few others.  This is not necessarily always true for forces as you point out.</p>
<p>This becomes apparent when dealing with an atom emitting a photon and that photon being (later) absorbed by another identical atom. The exchange of a photon causes the emitting atom to experience a force and change in momentum and the absorbing atom to experience an equal and opposite force and change in momentum but at a slightly later time. So force reciprocity is not present at all times, but conservation of momentum always is (since the photon carries momentum).</p>
<p>I am currently engaged in a very interesting discussion with some very good physics minds on Physicsforums.com about the third law in the context of centripetal force and the proper characterisation of the &#8220;reaction&#8221; to a centripetal force.   Since in a rotating system, there is only centripetal acceleration, my view is that the third law pair to a centripetal change in motion/momentum of one body in the system is an equal but opposite centripetal motion/momentum of the rest of the system. The other view is that the &#8220;reaction&#8221; pair to the centripetal force on a body in the system is a &#8220;centrifugal reaction force&#8221; of that body on the system.  The suggestion being that this is a real force not to be confused with the &#8220;fictitious centrifugal force&#8221; but does not result in any &#8220;change in motion&#8221; at all. I am opposed to using the notion of a real centrifugal force as there is no real centrifugal acceleration. There is even a Wikipedia page on this &#8220;reactive centrifugal force&#8221; at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_centrifugal_force" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_centrifugal_force</a>  , which I think is completely misconceived and mostly wrong.  But I seem to be a voice in the wilderness on physicsforums on this issue.</p>
<p>I would encourage you to keep up this interesting blog.<br />
Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Confusion Regarding Newton&#8217;s Third Law of Motion by Mark Hammond</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hammond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 18:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=153#comment-122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your disagreement with Newton&#039;s Third Law falls under misconception number one in my list of typical student misconceptions in the last section of my article. It is not &quot;obvious&quot; that objects with different masses exert different forces on each other. In fact, it is experimentally verifiable that they DO exert the SAME magnitude force on each other. Experimental evidence will trump supposition every time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your disagreement with Newton&#8217;s Third Law falls under misconception number one in my list of typical student misconceptions in the last section of my article. It is not &#8220;obvious&#8221; that objects with different masses exert different forces on each other. In fact, it is experimentally verifiable that they DO exert the SAME magnitude force on each other. Experimental evidence will trump supposition every time.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Confusion Regarding Newton&#8217;s Third Law of Motion by Maokeng Thabang</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maokeng Thabang]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 14:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=153#comment-120</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wan&#039;t to prove newton third law WRONG that says:for every action there is equal and opposite reaction.actually this law is incomplete because it says for &#039;every&#039; action there is equal and opposite reaction.&quot;what about during the action/collusion between two objects that have different forces/mass that they apply to each other,will the reaction be the same?&quot;Obvious that is the big &#039;NO&#039; because an object that has less mass/force will also apply less force to an object that have great force,that means that &quot;for every action there is unequal and opposite reaction.According to me,Newton&#039;s third law should be state like this:&quot;For every action they will be equal and opposite reaction,when the objects that are in reaction have same mass/force that is applied to each other.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wan&#8217;t to prove newton third law WRONG that says:for every action there is equal and opposite reaction.actually this law is incomplete because it says for &#8216;every&#8217; action there is equal and opposite reaction.&#8221;what about during the action/collusion between two objects that have different forces/mass that they apply to each other,will the reaction be the same?&#8221;Obvious that is the big &#8216;NO&#8217; because an object that has less mass/force will also apply less force to an object that have great force,that means that &#8220;for every action there is unequal and opposite reaction.According to me,Newton&#8217;s third law should be state like this:&#8221;For every action they will be equal and opposite reaction,when the objects that are in reaction have same mass/force that is applied to each other.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Confusion Regarding Newton&#8217;s Third Law of Motion by Mark Hammond</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hammond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=153#comment-119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For this, I apologize. I was very busy this spring, but I plan to get back to blogging soon! I promise I&#039;ll start with how I have taught Newton&#039;s Third Law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For this, I apologize. I was very busy this spring, but I plan to get back to blogging soon! I promise I&#8217;ll start with how I have taught Newton&#8217;s Third Law.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Confusion Regarding Newton&#8217;s Third Law of Motion by Krishna</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/#comment-118</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Krishna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2012 03:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=153#comment-118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bringing the point about the flaw in explaining the 3rd law is great, I was over excited to know it clearly.But I don&#039;t see any article as promised giving clear explanation, this is more cruel. At the end &quot;look at my next article&quot; the next one never came.......]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bringing the point about the flaw in explaining the 3rd law is great, I was over excited to know it clearly.But I don&#8217;t see any article as promised giving clear explanation, this is more cruel. At the end &#8220;look at my next article&#8221; the next one never came&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Getting girls to take physics by Mark Hammond</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/getting-girls-to-take-physics/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hammond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=174#comment-114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi, Robert. Thanks for commenting. You seem to be saying that the problem with my solution is the problem it&#039;s trying to solve. In that case we are locked into a vicious circle. But I don&#039;t think we are, because we are making good progress right now. To wit, we have female physics and chemistry teachers. And we are convincing more and more girls to take physics and are convincing a few more than previously to stay with physics through a second year. In addition, I currently have six former students now in college who are majoring in physics, three male, three female. There may be more (I just found out this week of one who is currently finishing his senior thesis!), and I haven&#039;t counted the ones in engineering yet.

The real problem with getting them to stay in physics was explained by a current college junior at a large university: On most nights, his non-science major friends would drop by his room to see what was up and get confused that he was &quot;working.&quot; He had to explain over and over, while they had their evenings free, he had to work. Now it&#039;s not quite the same for my former students in small liberal arts colleges... even the dance majors there apparently have lots to do outside of class meeting time. But the perceived difficulty of remaining in good academic standing when you are in the sciences chases some students off. I hope we have helped our students develop a little more backbone than that.

In response to your question about why we should &quot;force&quot; students to take algebra and physics, I should clarify my milieu: there are no students at my school who are not already deeply committed to going to college. Most see themselves in the future doing very intellectually challenging work. This is not a public school, nor is it a haven for the idle rich. The mission of the school is to live in the service of others, and, by golly, that&#039;s going to take some serious preparation. So my starting point for convincing any student to take physics is quite different than that of other physics teachers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Robert. Thanks for commenting. You seem to be saying that the problem with my solution is the problem it&#8217;s trying to solve. In that case we are locked into a vicious circle. But I don&#8217;t think we are, because we are making good progress right now. To wit, we have female physics and chemistry teachers. And we are convincing more and more girls to take physics and are convincing a few more than previously to stay with physics through a second year. In addition, I currently have six former students now in college who are majoring in physics, three male, three female. There may be more (I just found out this week of one who is currently finishing his senior thesis!), and I haven&#8217;t counted the ones in engineering yet.</p>
<p>The real problem with getting them to stay in physics was explained by a current college junior at a large university: On most nights, his non-science major friends would drop by his room to see what was up and get confused that he was &#8220;working.&#8221; He had to explain over and over, while they had their evenings free, he had to work. Now it&#8217;s not quite the same for my former students in small liberal arts colleges&#8230; even the dance majors there apparently have lots to do outside of class meeting time. But the perceived difficulty of remaining in good academic standing when you are in the sciences chases some students off. I hope we have helped our students develop a little more backbone than that.</p>
<p>In response to your question about why we should &#8220;force&#8221; students to take algebra and physics, I should clarify my milieu: there are no students at my school who are not already deeply committed to going to college. Most see themselves in the future doing very intellectually challenging work. This is not a public school, nor is it a haven for the idle rich. The mission of the school is to live in the service of others, and, by golly, that&#8217;s going to take some serious preparation. So my starting point for convincing any student to take physics is quite different than that of other physics teachers.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Getting girls to take physics by Mark Hammond</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/getting-girls-to-take-physics/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hammond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=174#comment-113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, Jane. I realize now that the meta-curriculum in learning that we teach (in large part due to the efforts of Kelly O&#039;Shea and in no small part due to our on-going collaboration with John Burk) addresses item 1) above. I never really thought about it in terms of keeping girls interested in science, but now I realize that I have been using these &quot;mindset&quot; lessons to talk to girls about the kinds of annoying comments and reactions they may get from professors in college (the kinds of comments that roll right off young men, who don&#039;t, in general, derive one whit of their sense of worth from a professors&#039; comments). 

The second item above is exactly what we are trying to do with standards based grading. Our feedback is very specific to the clearly identified learning goals. We are getting better and better at giving students guidance in how to &quot;practice&quot; physics on their own. As the year goes on, more and more this practice takes place outside the classroom, at whatever pace or urgency the student chooses (self-regulation/self-assessment could be thought of as yet another meta-curriculum that we teach).

Your third item is the one we have to work on. Before girls even enter our classroom, they run a gauntlet of pictures of old white men. An alumnus gifted the school his collection of pictures of Nobel laureates whom he has personally met. We need to balance that out with pictures of all of the fabulous female scientists we&#039;ve had visit for our Crump Physics Lecture Series. And we need to think more about the problems we give... I can&#039;t remember where, but somewhere recently I read a nice paper about unintentional male bias in physics problems-- change the problems slightly, everyone does better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Jane. I realize now that the meta-curriculum in learning that we teach (in large part due to the efforts of Kelly O&#8217;Shea and in no small part due to our on-going collaboration with John Burk) addresses item 1) above. I never really thought about it in terms of keeping girls interested in science, but now I realize that I have been using these &#8220;mindset&#8221; lessons to talk to girls about the kinds of annoying comments and reactions they may get from professors in college (the kinds of comments that roll right off young men, who don&#8217;t, in general, derive one whit of their sense of worth from a professors&#8217; comments). </p>
<p>The second item above is exactly what we are trying to do with standards based grading. Our feedback is very specific to the clearly identified learning goals. We are getting better and better at giving students guidance in how to &#8220;practice&#8221; physics on their own. As the year goes on, more and more this practice takes place outside the classroom, at whatever pace or urgency the student chooses (self-regulation/self-assessment could be thought of as yet another meta-curriculum that we teach).</p>
<p>Your third item is the one we have to work on. Before girls even enter our classroom, they run a gauntlet of pictures of old white men. An alumnus gifted the school his collection of pictures of Nobel laureates whom he has personally met. We need to balance that out with pictures of all of the fabulous female scientists we&#8217;ve had visit for our Crump Physics Lecture Series. And we need to think more about the problems we give&#8230; I can&#8217;t remember where, but somewhere recently I read a nice paper about unintentional male bias in physics problems&#8211; change the problems slightly, everyone does better.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Getting girls to take physics by Jane Jackson</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/getting-girls-to-take-physics/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jane Jackson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2012 07:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=174#comment-109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark,
For what it&#039;s worth, the U.S. Department of Education&#039;s Institute of Education Sciences (IES) has a 47-page document that you can download, called Encouraging Girls in Math and Science: IES Practice Guide (Sept. 2007). (Google it.)  Its authors are six researchers. They find moderate evidence for these three actions. I quote:

(1) Teachers should explicitly teach students that academic abilities are expandable and improvable in order to enhance girls’ beliefs about their abilities. Students who view their cognitive abilities as fixed from birth or unchangeable are more likely to experience decreased confidence and performance when faced with difficulties or setbacks. Students who are more confident about their abilities in math and science are more likely to choose elective math and science courses in high school and more likely to select math and science-related college majors and careers.

(2)  Teachers should provide students with prescriptive, informational feedback regarding their performance. Prescriptive, informational feedback focuses on strategies, effort, and the process of learning (e.g., identifying gains in children’s use of particular strategies or specific errors in problem solving). Such feedback enhances students’ beliefs about their abilities, typically improves persistence, and improves performance on tasks.

(4)  Teachers can foster girls’ long-term interest in math and science by choosing activities connecting math and science activities to careers in ways that do not reinforce existing gender stereotypes and choosing activities that spark initial curiosity about math and science content. Teachers can provide ongoing access to resources for students who continue to express interest in a topic after the class has moved on to other areas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,<br />
For what it&#8217;s worth, the U.S. Department of Education&#8217;s Institute of Education Sciences (IES) has a 47-page document that you can download, called Encouraging Girls in Math and Science: IES Practice Guide (Sept. 2007). (Google it.)  Its authors are six researchers. They find moderate evidence for these three actions. I quote:</p>
<p>(1) Teachers should explicitly teach students that academic abilities are expandable and improvable in order to enhance girls’ beliefs about their abilities. Students who view their cognitive abilities as fixed from birth or unchangeable are more likely to experience decreased confidence and performance when faced with difficulties or setbacks. Students who are more confident about their abilities in math and science are more likely to choose elective math and science courses in high school and more likely to select math and science-related college majors and careers.</p>
<p>(2)  Teachers should provide students with prescriptive, informational feedback regarding their performance. Prescriptive, informational feedback focuses on strategies, effort, and the process of learning (e.g., identifying gains in children’s use of particular strategies or specific errors in problem solving). Such feedback enhances students’ beliefs about their abilities, typically improves persistence, and improves performance on tasks.</p>
<p>(4)  Teachers can foster girls’ long-term interest in math and science by choosing activities connecting math and science activities to careers in ways that do not reinforce existing gender stereotypes and choosing activities that spark initial curiosity about math and science content. Teachers can provide ongoing access to resources for students who continue to express interest in a topic after the class has moved on to other areas.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Getting girls to take physics by jsb16</title>
		<link>http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/getting-girls-to-take-physics/#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jsb16]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 22:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/?p=174#comment-108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please tell me you&#039;re joking when you wonder where we&#039;ll get women to teach and talk about physics. You do have female colleagues, don&#039;t you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please tell me you&#8217;re joking when you wonder where we&#8217;ll get women to teach and talk about physics. You do have female colleagues, don&#8217;t you?</p>
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